Comments on: Dave Davenport Has Come Unstuck in Time: December 1-6, 2003 https://narbonic.com/comic/december-1-6-2003/ By Shaenon K. Garrity Sun, 14 Jul 2024 00:52:22 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.9 By: Mark (ritzbot) https://narbonic.com/comic/december-1-6-2003/#comment-9205 Wed, 08 Jul 2015 21:01:32 +0000 http://narbonic.com/?p=3479#comment-9205 I personally have concluded that the effects of time travel depend on whether time is one- or two-dimensional and Schrodinger’s Cat.

If time is one-dimensional, then one of two things will happen.  Either the timeline is immutable and all actions you take in your travels are the same actions other versions of you took, or a the timeline is changed/overwritten and the universe will overwrite the previous timeline, get caught in an infinite loop, correct itself to the best of its abilities, or explode/implode in paradox.

If the universe is two-dimensional, then alternate realities exist as the timeline splits from various choices made.  The differences in realities depend on sensitivity to initial conditions, but that’s beside the point.  The mere presence of the time traveler sends him down an altered path in the multiverse.  Given this second theory (which seems to fit the Narbonic model much better), there is a small jump from traveling to alternate pasts to creating a dimensional gate to jump between alternate presents and parallel realities.

Finally, the fate of the time traveler depends on the nature of the time travel.  If time cannot change, then the traveler goes on his or her merry way, except that it is shown that free choice is a crock because it’s what he or she has already done.  If the universe is self-correcting or overwrites itself, then the time traveler will either fade out of existence, certain details change in each iteration until the loop is broken, or the time traveler becomes a rogue without a home reality.  If the universe explodes, then goodbye everyone.  If there are alternate timelines, then the time traveler also goes on his or her merry way, but free choice is still maintained.

Like is said, don’t get me started.  This was without diagrams.

“In an infinity of worlds, anything is not only possible; it’s mandatory.” ~Neil Gaiman

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By: E.T. the Eccentric Type (et_the_eccentric_type) https://narbonic.com/comic/december-1-6-2003/#comment-9204 Wed, 08 Jul 2015 21:01:31 +0000 http://narbonic.com/?p=3479#comment-9204 This discussion on time travel basically falls into the big sci-fi paradox: where does Science Fiction end and Fantasy begin?

I think this strip strayed into Fantasy a little too much, but, hey, that makes it more fun!

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By: John Campbell (jcampbel) https://narbonic.com/comic/december-1-6-2003/#comment-9203 Wed, 08 Jul 2015 21:01:30 +0000 http://narbonic.com/?p=3479#comment-9203 The Terminator series actually did pretty well – the first two movies were head and shoulders above the bulk of Hollywood time travel. Its problem is that while the movies, when looked at independently, each have a solid and logically consistent time model, they don’t use the same time model. The first movie was a well-executed closed loop, while the second works as a branching timeline model. And they’re not compatible with each other. The rules of the universe changed between movies.

(And we’ll ignore Terminator 3 entirely, because it was just nonsense.)

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By: Daniel Barkalow (iabervon) https://narbonic.com/comic/december-1-6-2003/#comment-9202 Wed, 08 Jul 2015 21:01:29 +0000 http://narbonic.com/?p=3479#comment-9202 I don’t think it’s terribly inconsistent to have some things about the past tht can’t be changed. If you go back in time and prevent Socrates from being sentenced to death, it would be highly surprising to the audience if you returned to a future in which Socrates was still alive thousands of years later, because people just don’t live that long even if they are saved from noteworthy causes of death. If you go back in time and kill Michelson and Morley, someone else will eventually notice that the speed of light is constant. Similarly, in a universe where malicious sentient networks are possible to create accidentally, someone’s going to do it eventually. Of course, all of the arbitrary story elements should be different, but a lot of elements would be maintained if the story were publicized. That is, if you tell people you prevented the creation of Skynet and stopped Judgement Day, when a malicious network appears later, everybody will call it Skynet and say you failed.

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By: Diane Castle (deecee) https://narbonic.com/comic/december-1-6-2003/#comment-9201 Wed, 08 Jul 2015 21:01:28 +0000 http://narbonic.com/?p=3479#comment-9201 @Mike:  I have to agree.  I’ve made essentially the same comments about a number of movies and TV shows.  However, there’s a variant to your Type II that I like: the Closed Loop With Twist.  No, it’s not a moebius strip.  There’s an old one I was reminded of quite recently.  The guy knows that in his past (Nazi Germany), among many horrible events, his little sister in the concentration camp was taken away by guards and killed and never seen again.  He (as an adult) has a way to do time travel.  (He doesn’t try to kill Hitler: you know the rule on that one.)  But at one point in the story, he impersonates a concentration camp guard and takes his little sister away.  To the future.  Everything in his past is still true.  But he still saved his little sister.  It’s just that she’s still a young girl.

And I only wish that the Terminator stories were the worst offender.

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By: Mike Kozar (mikekozar) https://narbonic.com/comic/december-1-6-2003/#comment-9200 Wed, 08 Jul 2015 21:01:27 +0000 http://narbonic.com/?p=3479#comment-9200 I’ve got a whole rant about causality in movies.  This seems like as good a place as any to get it off my chest.

 

Any time travel story (and remember that prophesy is a form of time travel, just information instead of people) has to deal with the issue of causality, the basic logical premise that things that happen effect things that happen next, which in turn effect things that happen later.  Lazy writers assume that only the events that we want to change will be changed, but consider how unlikely that is – go back in time, buy a gun and kill a dictator, and you have changed not only the dictator-related timeline, but the timeline relating to the gun shop and that gun.  If you waited in line, you slightly delayed dozens of people – maybe someone misses a bus, or doesn’t step in front of a car.  It goes back to the Butterfly Effect – small changes have significant unintended consequences.

There are thee ways to deal with causality: the first, and tragically most common, is to simply ignore it.  Time travel is magic, or the Universe is being guided back to a ‘proper’ timeline by some godlike force.  When you return from the past, your friends will still be the same people, with the same personalities and wardrobes, despite you having altered the course of history.  You might suddenly be the Commandant of a police state, but you will still hang around with the girl who won’t date you, your goofball college buddy, and the snide jackass nobody likes.  Why? Why is your group of friends the only immutable facet of the universe?  These can be fun stories, but you can’t think too hard about them, which makes them poor Science Fiction.

The second way to deal with causality is the Closed Loop timeline.  Douglas Adams actually used this in his Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy – you can go back in time, sure, and try to change things, but remember that whatever you are *going* to do has *already happened*.  This comes up often in prophecy stories – by trying to avert the prophecy, the hero causes it to occur, because it was always going to happen.  This turns the whole time-travel story into a tragedy about destiny – you can’t save her, you can’t stop the bomb, and you won’t ever, ever, get there in time, because it has always happened that way.  The satisfaction I get from the good logic in these stories never seems to overcome the hopelessness of the basic premise.

The third way is the Branching Timeline.  This is the most useful form of time-travel universe to be in, because knowing the future changes the future – as soon as you start to change things, you take your memories of your original timeline and become a member of a second timeline.  This is what happened to Dave in Narbonic.  Although the Butterfly Effect says it is difficult to predict how the future will unfold, you can change things.

My pet peeve regarding time travel stories is when the author tries to include a Branching Timeline and a Closed Loop in the same story.  Logically, if you can change *anything*, you can change *everything*; conversely, if you can’t change something, you shouldn’t be able to change anything.  The worst offender in my mind here is the Terminator series – we can change the date of Judgement Day, we can kill the primary developer, but Skynet will always become sentient and Judgement Day will always occur.  The only reason for that combination of free will and destiny is some kind of magic, and I don’t need magic in my time-travelling robot assassin movies. 

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By: Shaenon Garrity (shaenongarrity) https://narbonic.com/comic/december-1-6-2003/#comment-9199 Wed, 08 Jul 2015 21:01:26 +0000 http://narbonic.com/?p=3479#comment-9199 Proving once again that “hard” science fiction is just science fiction that doesn’t know how to party.

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By: Ed Gedeon (eddurd) https://narbonic.com/comic/december-1-6-2003/#comment-9198 Wed, 08 Jul 2015 21:01:25 +0000 http://narbonic.com/?p=3479#comment-9198 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niven's_laws

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By: Ed Gedeon (eddurd) https://narbonic.com/comic/december-1-6-2003/#comment-9197 Wed, 08 Jul 2015 21:01:24 +0000 http://narbonic.com/?p=3479#comment-9197 Larry Niven, one of the “harder” science fiction authors, postulated that time travel was impossible. 

First consider if there is an inertia to history.  If history is altered, does it try to push itself back into its original shape?  If you save the Archduke Ferdinand from being shot, someone else will do it a week later, and World War One still happens.  If you kill your own grandfather, you might end up taking his place (after all, you still have his genes, and Grandma was a hottie in her day).

On the other hand, if your changes in history are permanent, then one person will go back in time to alter history to their liking, another person will try to undo the changes the first person did, then someone else will try to make further changes … with enough time travellers, the laws of probability state that eventually, someone will alter time in such a way that time machines can’t be invented.

Niven’s Law:  If the laws of physics permit time travel, then no time machine will be invented in that universe.

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By: Leon Arnott (l) https://narbonic.com/comic/december-1-6-2003/#comment-9196 Wed, 08 Jul 2015 21:01:23 +0000 http://narbonic.com/?p=3479#comment-9196 Saturday:

The thing about today’s strip is that Dave is going to/has already created a new history while still remembering the old one, and we, the viewers, are going to meet someone whose mind blocks the irrational.

Not sure about paradoxes triggering a universe-wide segmentation fault, though. It hasn’t happened yet, but various intimations on quantum immortality such as Mr. Shiga’s “Meanwhile” suggest that even if universal destruction was possible, we, the readers, would only see the storyline where it never happened.

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